GPPR Senior Podcast Editor Eleazar Weissman (MPP’ 24) speaks with Riva Duncan, Vice-President Of Grassroots Wildland Firefighters, about the most pressing issues impacting the wildland firefighting community. In this podcast, Riva shares her perspective on the policies that will best support our nation’s wildland firefighters and help ensure they can accomplish their mission.
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Eleazar Weissman: Hello, Riva, If you could just introduce yourself, that would be great.
Riva Duncan: Hey, Eleazar My name is Riva. Duncan, you want me to give my little mini bio?
Weissman: Yeah, that would be great.
Duncan: Okay. So I retired at the end of 2020, after over 31 years, with the US Forest Service, started out in forestry and as a forester, but then switched into fire. And I worked on type two initial attack, Cam crews, hotshot crew engines, little bit of hell attack fuels, before moving into management, and I worked all across the US, I worked in five different Forest Service regions and on seven different national forests. So I think that helped give me you know, every region of the Forest Service, even some of the forests have kind of their own little mini culture. So I think that really brought into my you know, my viewpoints and got a glimpse into all these different little mini cultures that make up the whole, the whole of wildland fire in the forest service. So after I retired a couple of months after that, I was asked to join the grassroots wildland firefighters. It’s a nonprofit advocacy group. I’m fighting for reforms for federal wildland firefighters in the in the form of pay benefits, comprehensive health and wellbeing those kinds of things, which I think we’ll dive into a little bit more so so I’ve been at that for about two years now. And really enjoy the that kind of work keeps me connected to the profession and to the boots on the ground, and gives me a chance to kind of give back to our community.
Weissman: Definitely, well, I’m hoping you could give a little bit more information and background on some of the issues that you have seen in the world of wildland firefighting, and some of the developments that have happened. I know there’s been a lot, but I think you if you could just offer a quick summary that would be really helpful for the listeners.
Duncan: Sure, you know, we’ve not, one of the big things is, we were not called wildland firefighters. So the way the federal government has things set up is there’s a series and depending on your job, you you’re in that series. And so they decided in the 70s, there was like a fire series then, but it was very limited in like a career ladder. And so they decided that it made sense for people to be in the forestry technician series. But that’s the same series that people who Mark timber, and some of the rec techs, I mean, it’s kind of the catch all technician series in the Forest Service and some of the other federal agencies as well. And so it wasn’t a big deal for a while, but then, you know as we started to see the need to professionalize the workforce because back then we had shorter fire seasons, we would go 2,3,4 years without even a busy fire season, and so a lot of the work the folks did was kind of small in the fire and then when we weren’t fighting fire we would do all kinds of other things like mark timber, build fences, and clean up camp sites and things like that. So as we started to see this movement towards lengthier fire seasons, bigger fire seasons, and the demands of that kind of work, it just kind of became important to be recognized as a firefighter and as a responder. And not just in title only but how then we are looked at in within the federal government, which can effect benefits, which can effect workers comp. so there had been a push inside, internally, in the Forest Service, gosh for probably the last 20 years, top try and just get us our own series that identified us as firefighters and the people we’ve talked to who were part of that fight for the last 20 years just ran into all kinds of barriers most of those internal, frankly, and then over the last probably 10-15 years where we’ve really seen this increase due to climate change. You know, these crazy fire seasons crazy fire behavior, losing entire communities, and this extension of the fire season into a fire year. It became even more important beyond just that identify the identity of a series but then you know, pay and comprehensive health and wellbeing and recognition of the sacrifices that federal wildland firefighters make for this career, which are pretty substantial. And we can get into that, but, but so that’s kind of where grassroots came into it, you know, they just got tired of, you know, the lack of recognition for the risks of the work, right. And then the sacrifices personal that people make, and their families make for this profession. And so that’s where grassroots came in, to really try to start, you know, working internally with the different agencies, but also with legislators. And so we’ve made some pretty good strides in the last couple of years that people inside, you know, grassroots, we’re all outside the agency. Now, most of us are a couple still in, but in a lot of ways, it’s easier for those of us who are now outside, either retired or have resigned into other positions, because we’re not held by constraints. You know, speaking on behalf of these federal agencies, we can speak pretty freely.
Weissman: That’s great. Well, I was thinking, based off what you said about some of the work that wildland firefighters do, you and I are a little bit more intimately familiar with that. But I think that a lot of people are sort of unaware of what the day-to-day work is like, and how assignments operate. And some of the strains that can put on one’s family’s health, and, you know, body essentially. So I was hoping that you can maybe give people a little rundown on what that’s like.
Duncan: I think a lot, I think it’s getting better people’s awareness of what wildland firefighters do and how that’s different from structural fire departments, which, that’s what most people are familiar with. Right? So a structural fire department in your neighborhood, you know, a lot of people understand that they work, you know, like 36-48 hour shifts, so two or three days on two or three days off, you know, they stay within their, their municipal district. In wildland fire, particularly federal, we can get dispatched anywhere in the US including its territories and common wealth like Puerto Rico, like Guam, Virgin Islands. And we even do have agreements with some other countries like Canada, Mexico, Australia and can assist our international partners as well with that. And so we don’t typically stay in our home district, right. And so when we go on a fire assignment its typically 14 days and sometimes can be extended to 21 days. So that is 14 or 21 days straight, with no day off, those days are very long, you know 16 hour days. And then when were done with that assignment, for the Forest Service they have changed it to three days off, department of interior still does two days off, so two days off and then you are right back up as available and depending on what kind of fire crew or module you are on its very likely that after those two or three days off you are right back out on another long assignment. And so that takes us away from our families, it takes us away from our friends, it takes us away from our personal support system and that can put a lot of stressors, on like you mentioned Eleazar, those family dynamics, particularly people who have partners and children. You know then your partner who is back home, the burden of running the household and raising the children typically falls upon that person that can create a lot of stressors. So that’s probably the biggest difference we have with fire departments that people recognize. Also, people are shocked to hear that we wear our own personal protective equipment, PPE, but it’s not anything like structural fire departments, their turnout gear, protects them from a lot of hazardous chemical, smokes, they wear oxygen tanks, breathing masks, we don’t do that, our clothing is porous, it is fire resistant, but it is porous. And we don’t wear anything to cover our faces. My own family doctor, I thought for the first time, I should probably mention that and he was pretty shocked to hear you know that we don’t wear that. So we don’t, you know, our airways aren’t protected. So we’re exposed to a lot of toxins. And there really hasn’t been any kind of recognition of that. There’s not a lot of research. It’s really difficult to prove a federal worker’s comp case that you got sick. Whether it’s a cancer, whether it’s cardio pulmonary diseases like chronic bronchitis or chronic asthma or you know, any of those. It’s been almost impossible to prove that we contracted those illnesses in the line of duty. First of all, when we are not recognized as responders, we’re forestry technician. So that’s, that is where that can come into play. And we don’t have any kind of presumptive health care that a lot of fire departments in municipal fire departments have. So these are the kinds of things that we’re trying to daylight to elected officials. Also journalists who take up our cause and do stories, you know, getting that out there into the out to the public, so they understand. So these are the kinds of things that Grassroots Wildland Firefighters is trying to highlight, and bring forth and bring up kind of to the front. So people understand.
Weissman: Definitely. That was a great summary. I have a couple of questions. So the first thing that comes to mind. Well, a couple of questions come to mind. The first is, how would the change in terms and recognition as a first responder affect the profession, particularly because so many wildland firefighters are seasonals? And I was curious what your take is on that. And, you know, because I think that’s a point of confusion for a lot of people who work in, particularly in wildland fire.
Duncan: Right? I’ll give you an example, when COVID first hit us. And there were so many unknowns about COVID, in 2020, early in 2020, and we were all figuring out trying to figure out how we were going to fight fire in this environment, right. And so then we started thinking about, well, what if someone caught COVID, while they’re on a fire assignment, or traveling to a fire assignment or traveling home, you know, and wanted to file a claim a worker’s comp claim. And so the Forest Service actually went to the Department of Labor where OWCP is under Department of Labor and asked, right, and the Department of Labor came back and said, Well, if you just tell us that they are actually first responders, that will just that will make a huge difference. Just tell us that. And then it’s very likely that those cases will get approved as a worker’s comp. And shockingly, and I don’t even understand why but the Forest Service refused to do that. They didn’t have to do anything formal, they didn’t have to go to OPM and change the series. That didn’t happen. They just had to tell, you know, Department of Labor, yes, they’re first responders. For whatever reason, the Forest Service said no, we’re not going to do that. So that’s an example of why having that kind of series and that recognition, that shows us that this is who we are, will make things easier when we go to try and prove things like that. And also just, you know, just having that recognition that the work we do is, is very risky. It’s very hazardous, we face a lot of, you know, hazards on the fire line, but then hazards with mental health, right, being exposed to traumatic events. And then those stressors I talked about earlier, you know, the divorce rate in wildland firefighters is significantly higher than the general population and other responder populations, suicide rate, extremely high, you know, and so kind of all of these things that, you know, just not having that recognition of the sacrifices that we make and the true nature of the work that we do. It’s just really important to have that recognition.
Weissman: Definitely. I’m curious. You said you’re not totally sure. But if you could put yourself in their shoes, maybe like, what would be their reasoning, for not doing that? Now, I’ve heard a few things. But you know, things you hear from people on the ground. You know, it’s different. You know, when you’re talking to someone who really works in this field, and who’s focused particularly on solving this issue. So I’m curious what your take is.
Duncan: I think it’s probably a few things. I think, you know, there are people at high levels at all levels, but also including high levels within the Forest Service and the DOI agencies that think we are pri-maddonas right, I mean what’s so special about you all, why do you guys need all this special recognition. So I think there is a little about of that goes along with it. Well why you and not us? What about everybody else? You know the what about type of thing. I think that has something to do with it. I think also that people think for some reason that it’s maybe a threat to the mission of the forest service. The natural resources, we are forestry technicians because we are part of a land management agency and we do work on forests and refuges, and BLM districts, and national parks and so I’m thinking that it might be also part of that and feeling like that might be the first step towards a federal fire agency, there’s a lot of talk about that a lot of opposition, a lot of support goes both ways. That’s my, those are my theories kind of with that. But you know, if you’ve heard different ones, I’m open to hearing that from you as well.
Weissman: Because it is, like really unique, you know, since I’ve started, I’ve just learned so much about it and how it’s different from, you know, like we’ve mentioned before the regular municipal firefighter duties. So I think people are afraid of missing out on that special part of the qualifications or culture of thing.
Duncan: I think, I think you hit the nail on the head with culture, right? Because you look at structural firefighters, you know, they were neatly pressed uniforms state, you know, their station where they’re typically clean cut, and that is because of the SCBA. So the oxygen masks that they wear, I can’t have they’re restricted in their facial hair because of the seal of the of the mask, they wear, you know, short hair. It’s, it’s, it’s a very para militaristic profession. And then you have the federal land management agencies, and even some of the state agencies, right, and contractors. You know, we’re kind of we’re kind of the dirt bags and I think we take a lot of pride in that. We have beards, and we can have long hair, and a lot of tattoos. And that’s not held against people. It’s kind of almost expected, you know, because when you’re out for 14 days, and you’re sleeping in the dirt, you’re not getting a shower, who’s going to shave right, you know. And so I think also, you’re right, that people are a little worried that we would lose a little bit of that, and maybe have to look more like a fire department. You know, I don’t know, I don’t know that that’s necessarily true. But I know that that is a concern that people have, and that’s valid. Sure.
Weissman: So I was hoping to also go into some of the issues that we’ve seen resulting, you know, we talked about the issues for the individual, wildland firefighters and their families, but also how these problems have affected managing wildland fire in general. Issues with hiring, for example, if you could give us some information on that. That’d be really interesting.
Duncan: Yeah, so you know, when I first started a long time ago, um, people could still make a pretty decent living doing this job. Now, we all know that, even back then, and even today, that reliance on overtime is pretty significant towards being able to make financial ends meet. Right. So wildland firefighters get overtime and hazard pay while on a fire assignment. And that makes a big difference, because our base pay is quite low. It’s quite embarrassingly close, particularly for the entry level and maybe the middle management folks. And then if you couple that with high cost of living, you know, the rental markets crazy, the housing markets crazy, it, these are priced a lot of, you know, really great firefighters from being able to buy a house or rent a decent place to live. A lot of wildland firefighters live out live out of their vehicles in the summer, it might not make a lot of sense to pay rent, if you’re never there, if you’re not going to be there fighting fires. So a lot of folks live out of their vehicles or camp. Some of the they do it because they can’t afford to live places like you know, Santa Fe, New Mexico, and Bozeman, Montana, and Bend Oregon, you know, these places that are really have gotten popular, they’re extremely expensive, very difficult to find affordable housing.
Duncan: And so I think that’s, that’s a big part of it as well, is just those kinds of struggles to make ends meet that we didn’t have back then. And so, you know, what I get frustrated with is, you know, the, the and I’m retired, but I hear a lot of the retirees well, you’re just not managing your money correctly. And these you know, what, are you kidding me? I was able to make a living and they don’t realize how, how much has changed since then and how difficult it is and even government provided housing is almost unaffordable now because of the way that GSA runs and how they, how they determine, you know, government housing rental rates and everything so, so it’s just it’s a different world and then again, like, you know, we could go two or three years without having a busy fire season and so people were home and they got to do family stuff and, you know, not miss birthdays and go to the reunion. And now, you know, when fire season is starting earlier and earlier lasting later and later, you know, folks are gone and, and away from their families more than more than ever. And a lot of I think a lot of younger folks have just decided it’s not worth it to them. You know, I don’t like it when different generations bash other generations because we all it’s, you know, everybody’s done it to everybody. And, and generations have their own different set of values. It’s how they were raised. And I think the younger generation’s value, their work life balance, they value their family time, they value personal time they go hiking, to enjoy the outdoors, do all the other things they love. And they’re just not willing to sacrifice all of that, for frankly, the pay and benefits. And so now we’re starting to see, and a lot of us inside knew that was coming, we’ve been sounding the alarm for years. And now we’re kind of seeing it, where now we’re finding it really difficult to hire a lot of entry level firefighters, but then also retain we’re investing money in people. Because we train people, they get the experience. And then we’re losing people with 10, 12, 15 years, who have just critical knowledge and experience in wildland fire. And they’re leaving for better pay and better benefits and better work life balance. So the agencies are really struggling to fill all their engine positions, fill all the crew positions, they’ve had to stand down hotshot crews, they’ve had to park engines, and it looks like this year is probably going to be even worse than last year. And so that is something again, we’re kind of we’re behind the curve on it, you know, and some people are saying it’s a little it’s a too little too late. And so the agencies are struggling with that.
Weissman: So I guess like, if you were to, I guess come up with, you know, things that you ways that we can improve to get back on track?
What would those be in terms of incentivizing wildland firefighters to join, stay, and also while also meeting their needs and their personal work life balance?
Duncan: I think the first thing is to pay these folks are a wage, you know, a living wage were there, there didn’t need to be this reliance on overtime, right? Because right now, people don’t want to miss out on a fire assignment, because that they miss out on a huge chunk of money. A lot of our workforce, particularly at those lower levels are seasonal. So they they’re laid off in the winter. And so this might be their primary source of income. And so there’s a lot of incentive to make as much money as they can during fire season at their own personal expense, right? personal expense of, well, I can’t go to this wedding, because I’m gonna miss out on a whole two week assignment or, you know, I, I gotta miss this birthday, right? Because I have to think about paying the bills in December in January, right? So we pay people a significantly higher wage. So there is not that reliance on overtime, and then provide better time off. Because it’s really, you know, if someone say that they’re, they’re going to have a child in fire season, obviously, they need to take off for their child’s birth. But that could mean that then if they’re assigned to an engine, that engine is grounded, right? It could mean the difference, even if one person not being available for fire assignment, then nobody’s available, you know, when nobody, people don’t want to take on that personal burden and feel like they’re, you know, affecting their crew member’s financial solvency. Right. So, so that’s a big thing. And the, we were fortunate that we were able to work with some legislators who actually let President Biden know what the base pay of an entry level federal wildland firefighter was. And he was pretty shocked and horrified. And some people are like, how can you not know what really to expect the President to know how much a GS-3 makes? I mean, most people inside the government don’t know. So. But when this was brought to his attention, you know, he changed that. And so he did raise the rate of the entry level GS positions. So that was kind of the first step. And then we were able to work with some legislators to get some language into the bipartisan infrastructure law, to have a temporary pay raise. It was only funded a certain amount of money.
600 million dollars, that only when they did the numbers last two years. So that started in fiscal year 22. It’s through this fiscal year, and then the money’s gone. The bipartisan infrastructure law only, you know, set aside as a set amount of money. And so the agencies are working on a permanent pay fix. We are told that that will be part of the President’s fiscal year 2024 budget, that comes out in March. But then again, we’re still at the mercy of Congress to approve that and people who pay attention whenever the president releases his budget, then, then the work starts by the different interest groups, you know, fighting for their own little piece of the pie, you know, taking things out. And so even if that’s in the new president’s budget for fiscal year 24, that could get cut out by Congress whenever they go to do it. Or we could just find ourselves not getting a budget and being into perpetual continuing resolutions. And so, while the agencies are trying, we don’t know what it looks like, we don’t know what that’ll be. And again, it still has to be approved by Congress. So there’s a lot of there’s a lot of things up in the air still with that. But that’s a big step. You know, the, the BIO also funded some mental health programs. And so the agencies are doing better with standing up some really good mental health programs specifically for wildland fire, you know, recognition of trauma trained clinicians, you know, a lot of the places we work are very rural, very remote. So it’s often difficult to access proper mental health services. So they’re trying to work on those things. Those things will continue. So that’s good, those strides are being made.
Weissman: So based off what you were talking about earlier in this conversation with the escalation of wildfires, we’ve seen some of the largest ones in history recently. And some of the issues we’ve talked about in relation to hiring, and making sure that wildland firefighters are capable of doing their job. I’m curious, what is currently being done about this, or what things are in the process of happening to help solve this.
Duncan: You know, again, going back to the infrastructure law, they also said that the Forest Service and Department of Interior would work with OPM Office of Personnel Management, and developing a new, unique firefighter series. They didn’t develop a new unique one, They dusted off the old one, which was the 4 5 6 series, that’s the one I talked about was used, like in this 50s 60s 70s. But they did a major overhaul of it. So that was good. So that’s also in the works. The agencies have been reviewing all the current position descriptions to make sure they’re compatible into the new series. It’s been quite controversial, because there are some groups that they said would be left out of the new series. dispatchers are the biggest group. Um, you know, the dispatch community often is kind of overlooked, right and forgotten about, but we could not ride prior without them, like we would be dead in the water. You know, they’re the Lifeline at the end of the radio and the end of the phone, when we need more resources. When we need a metal back, right, we need to do an evacuation of community. And so. So that’s been really controversial with that some of the aviation positions would be left out, not the underground, not repellers not smoked up first. But as you get into more aviation managers, positions, pilots, we have our own pilots. And then also equipment operators. So we have fire equipment operators, who you know, are out there on the bulldozers and tractor plows, problem lines around, because they’re not even the GPS system. They’re in the wage grade system. So that’s really complicated. So that’s pretty controversial, but they’ve been making their way through Oh, and some fire training position. So they’ve been making their way through all these PDs. And then those PDs get reviewed by they go, they stay within the agency’s human resources to review them. And then they go to the department level, so USDA for the Forest Service DOI for interior. And then that’s where they get kind of approved for firefighter retirement. And then they go to OPM. So, you know, we’ve been over a year in this process, they’re, they’re getting close to that they’re, they’re finishing up the last few complex PDS. And so there will be a determination made, who goes into the new series who doesn’t. And so that, you know, we wanted that we wanted that recognition. So that’s important. And but we want it to be as inclusive as possible as well to include as many people as possible. Like I talked about the permanent pay fix that’s hopefully in the works, some of the comprehensive health and wellbeing.
So the National Defense Authorization Act, so every year, this is how the military has funded. The NDAA comes up with the dollar figures to fund the military, this is always passed, it’s passed every year, even though it’s an act when it comes to law. And we were actually able to get some language in the last in the fiscal year 23 NDAA. The section is the fairness for federal firefighters. So this was huge. This was a big, big deal, because like I was talking about previously about presumptive health care, and the difficulty in proving we got certain illnesses through the course of our jobs, well, this finally is, is recognizing that and lays out certain illnesses and diseases presumed to be work related, right. And so this is in the case of disability. This is in case of just a claim. This is also in case of, you know, a fatality, right. And so that’s huge. That has been a really big deal. And it lays out which diseases are included. There were a weird handful of a few that weren’t initially occluded. But they have three years to make determinations. Personally, me a lot of those were illnesses that face women. So we were kind of pissed off about that. We don’t understand why these were left out. Even though women make up a small number, we’re still out here doing the same work and the same exposures and the same illnesses. And so hopefully those will be included in the next three years. But this was another big step. So it’s all part of kind of this movement towards comprehensive reform, which is what we’re talking about. We did have a legislation introduced a couple of years ago into the house called the Tim Hart Act. And this was comprehensive. This is what we had worked with legislators crafting this. Representative Neguse, out of Colorado has been the, you know, he was the guy who the catalyst who started this, he’s been a great friend, wildland firefighters. And this was, you know, one giant, comprehensive piece of legislation that included a lot of the stuff that’s already been taken on by the infrastructure law. And so what we were told is, it was too big, it was too much, very expensive. And so there have been pieces of Tim’s Act taken out and put them in these other pieces of legislation, which we’re okay with, you know, as long as we get there, we’re happy to see it, it’s just going to take a little bit longer and be piecemealed. And so those are kind of the things that are in the works. Right now, we’re still fighting for temporaries able to buy back their temporary time that will count towards a retirement that would affect all federal employees. When the system changed from Civil Service Retirement to FERS, Federal Employees Retirement that changed. So there’s still something’s out there. We’re advocating for continuing to advocate for.
Weissman: That’s good news, I hope for the future. I think things like you said they’ve, they’ve been improving over time. And it’s just, I guess, one question I had, you know, I’m sure this, we’ve sort of talked around it. But I think one of the issues that a lot of people face in the field is that if they become hurt, for whatever reason, a lot of times, they don’t have a backup support network. And I’m sure that these are the things. These are, you know, one of the many issues that you guys are working on. But I’m most curious to hear more about that.
Duncan: Yeah, you raise a good point. So we have a firefighters and law enforcement in the federal system have a special retirement. And so we pay more into it, we pay more into that retirement system. So we have more of our wages taken out and paid into this retirement, and we have mandatory retirement that then comes out of that, and that is age 57. And so we get more because we can’t keep working fire now we could move out of fire to law enforcement into, you know, stay out of the federal system, but out of those, uh, but a lot of people don’t want to do that, I didn’t want to do that, right. And so, um, but what happens is, like you mentioned, if someone gets hurt, in the line of duty or not, but particularly in the line of duty, and they can no longer fight fire. So under an operational aspect, they can’t take the physical fitness test, they can’t, you know, perform the arduous duties that are required for this job. And if they move into a non-fire position, then they lose their fiery firefighter retirement, and they don’t get back the money they paid into it, like it’s just gone. Right. And so that is something that we’ve also been advocating for, is that if someone is injured in the line of duty, and can no longer fight fire, that they retain their federal firefighter retirement, regardless of what job they go into. And so, we do have some movement on that, we feel good that that that will become, you know, an actual law or policy. And so that’s just another thing that, you know, gets overlooked because again, if you’re, if you’re relatively low on the on the pay scale, if you’re on an engine or a crew, you get injured, you can’t fight fire anymore. You know, if you have to take permanent disability, your future disability payment is at that level, that low level, while you’re not getting that overtime and hazard pay that you relied on to supplement that crappy low pay. Right? And so if you move out of fire, so it’s kind of like a it’s a double whammy to a lot of these folks. They not only do they lose their primary retirement, but they don’t have that same income, you know, based on overtime and the hazard pay, and so it makes it really untenable for a lot of people to be able to make ends meet. There was one case where a wildland firefighter, very, very I think it was a GS-4 maybe and he was severely burned in a fire and, you know, went on 100% disability because he was extremely seriously injured. But you know, that froze his salary at like 14 bucks an hour, and for disability that he was supposed to have for the rest of his life. And when he got into recovery and made some strides, and was able to, you know, get a lot of his functioning back, he wanted to rejoin the workforce, not in wildland fire, but rejoin the workforce, and he couldn’t, because he was on federal 100% disability. And if he would have worked, he would have been subjected to extreme penalty on that right? For fraud, he actually had to sue the Department of Labor to take him off of disability, so that he could enter the workforce. Now, how messed up is that kind of system, here’s a guy wants to work. Because he knows, first of all, he can’t make ends meet. But second, he doesn’t want to just sit around, he’s in his 20s. He wants to do other things. And he couldn’t just say, hey, take take my disability way, I’m good with it, he actually had to sue. So that just gives you another indicator of how messed up the system is. It’s really, it’s really dysfunctional.
Weissman: Yeah, it’s, it’s a totally, and it’s a totally foreign world to so many people, also. So I think that adds to it, why maybe not getting the attention that these issues deserve? Which is why I really appreciate you speaking with us today and sharing some of this information. And I just, I guess, I want to ask you if there’s any points that you feel like you would like to make, and, or information that you think is valuable to share with everyone.
Duncan: You know, what, what we try to tell people is, and we do this a lot when we talk to journalists, because, you know, California gets a lot of the attention, rightfully so sure. They’re, they’re losing entire communities, right to some of these really devastating wildfires. But the wildfire problem we’re experiencing is not a California problem. It’s not a Western problem. It’s not even an American problem. It is a global problem. We’re seeing this, just now Chile is experiencing devastating wildfires, wildland fires right now, where they’re already had, I think 50 or 60 people killed in just the last couple of days. And so this is a global issue. This is not going to get better anytime soon. And so we want people to understand whether they live in Indiana, or Maine or New Hampshire, it’s going to affect them at some point. Whether it’s the smoke from the West, making it all the way to the East Coast, like it did a couple of years ago and smoking in Connecticut, that’s going to affect you, right. In 1998, Florida experienced devastating wildfires that jumped i-75, i-95, they had to postpone the Daytona 500, they almost had to close Disneyworld, hundreds of homes were lost, right? So it is it is a problem that everybody needs to pay attention to. And we have federal wildland firefighters that live and serve in every state in the US. And even if they’re not experiencing those fires, where they live, they’re going somewhere to help others. And so we need the American taxpayers to understand that this affects them too, and affects everybody, you know, on somewhat of a scale, and we talk about, it’s not a matter of if it’s a matter of when, you know, I remind people of the devastating fires in Gatlinburg, Tennessee in 2016. You know, 2300 structures destroyed, and I think close to 20 people killed in Tennessee, right. And so we can’t we, you know, we just need people to understand we need people to advocate for this profession. And we ask our supporters to contract contact their elected officials. And especially when the President’s budget comes out, and then we’re all at the mercy of Congress, we’re really going to want you know, a campaign to have people contact our local legislators to support that part of the legislation in the President’s budget. So we actually have on our website, which is Grassroots Wildland Firefighters.com, we have really easy way for people to contact their legislators, they don’t even have to know who they are, we know who it is, our database will tell you who it is, and send form emails, you can customize them. So, you know, those are the kinds of things that having, you know, getting this out the forefront. We’ve had some great journalists who have picked up the cause feel passionate in supporting us today, like these issues and keep it out there in the in the court of public opinion. Right. So those are those are kind of what I just want people to be aware of it’s not a Western problem, right? It is all over the place, and it’s going to affect everybody.
Weissman: Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing that information with everyone and getting the word out. Because I agree with you, I think it’s incredibly vital.
Duncan: You and I are two kids from the East who found our way into wildland fire in the West. And so you know, they’re right.
Weissman: Yeah. By luck or fate. Well, it was it was great talking to you today. And I appreciate the information you shared. And I encourage everyone to check out grasshoppers, wildland fire, and support now offer their support.
Duncan: Yeah, thank you. Eleazar. This was really, really fun. I enjoyed talking to you, it went fast. And yeah, I think it’s good to bring this. You know, you have this great audience there in Georgetown and surrounding areas to again, bring awareness to folks who may be not aware of, of what this is and how it affects everybody. So really appreciate that.
Weissman: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Georgetown Public Policy Review Podcast. I hope that you enjoyed our conversation and found the topic as important as I do. As we are heading toward the end of the Fiscal year in September, the temporary funding for wildland firefighter pay is set to expire, which as discussed in this episode, runs the risk of hampering the United States response to these disasters. I encourage our listeners to check out Grassroots website and let their congressperson know that adequate support is needed.
To learn more about the Georgetown Public Policy Review, please visit: www.gppreview.com. This is Eleazar Weissman, and thanks again for tuning in.
Established in 1995, the Georgetown Public Policy Review is the McCourt School of Public Policy’s nonpartisan, graduate student-run publication. Our mission is to provide an outlet for innovative new thinkers and established policymakers to offer perspectives on the politics and policies that shape our nation and our world.
