Diverse Perspectives in Leadership: A Conversation with Rohini Kosoglu

GPPR Podcast Editor Sneha Choudhary (MPP ’24) speaks with Rohini Kosoglu, former Deputy Assistant to the President and Domestic Policy Advisor to the Vice President in the Biden-Harris White House, and the first Asian American woman to hold this role. In this episode, Kosoglu shares her experience in working her way up in the government, the importance of diverse perspectives in leadership, and the lessons learned from prepping a female candidate for president.

“It is really important to build up the courage over time to keep approaching people because its the way to potentially meet people that will change your life…build up that courage inside, because so many good things can happen by you using your voice.” – Rohini Kosoglu

 

Sneha Choudhary: Hi everyone, this is Sneha Choudhary, and you are listening to the Georgetown Public Policy Review Podcast. Today, I’m talking to the incredible Rohini Lakshmi Kosoglu. Rohini is the former Deputy Assistant to the President and Domestic Policy Advisor to the Vice President in the Biden-Harris White House – and not to mention, the first Asian American woman to ever hold this role. In this episode, we’re going to talk about Rohini’s journey in public service, from starting out as a mail manager for Senator Debbie Stabenow of Michigan to eventually playing a critical role in the White House. We’re also going to talk about the importance of diverse perspectives in leadership and the lessons she learned from being Chief of Staff of Vice President Kamala Harris’ historic presidential campaign. Rohini has some really inspirational things to say, and I’m excited for you all to tune in. Let’s get started.

Choudhary: Thank you for joining us on the podcast today, Rohini. I’m so excited that you’re here today.

Rohini Kosoglu: Thanks for having me.

Choudhary: So let’s start with the beginning of your career. So you started your career in the mail room. Can you talk a little bit about what your day to day was like? How did you transition from the mail room to your first big break and was there any time that you ever considered giving up, and maybe doing something different?

Kosoglu: Well – the mail room, working in the mail room in the United States Senate right out of college was for me my first big break. My family is from New Jersey, and we didn’t have really any connections in DC. There was no people to email about my resume or anything like that.

Kosoglu: I really just was able to, in my last year of school, start interning in Senator Stabenow of Michigan, her state office, and I got to see what it was like in a state, what the Senator does when they’re not in DC, and just the people that they’re able to help. And so that’s everything from literally cutting out press clips in the morning, which is for people that were not solely relying on email is still part of the trade to this day. But going through the morning newspapers, cutting out clips, faxing them to Washington, DC. Also traveling around with the regional directors, where I was able to go around to the different parts of the state, and see the events that would happen on behalf of the Senator, the people that they were representing, the constituents. So many people would call in about so many different issues, and the staff would work so hard to try and make sure that they were representing the Senator in the best way possible, and so that was really eye opening for me.

Kosoglu: When I came to DC, I was so excited to be part of her office in the DC setting, and you could not have found a happier mail manager walking around, making sure that people had their mail, that we were going through the mail in the morning, both postal, people were emailing in, and they just had such a variety of concerns. People would share their life with her in terms of what their daily struggles were, and I thought it was a real honor to get to essentially open up their mail, but essentially get a window into their life, and how the Senator at the time might be helpful to them.

Choudhary: That is really interesting, and it does sound like such an intimate look into people literally sharing their life story with the Senator. And you, kind of being the conduit for all of that.

Choudhary: So you mentioned growing up in New Jersey – you’re the daughter of Sri Lankan immigrants, and you grew up in a predominantly white town – which, I’m also from New Jersey, and also grew up in a predominantly white town, so I found this really relatable. Can you tell us a little bit more about what your elementary and middle school and high school experience was like, and how that maybe shaped your perspective of both the world, but also of yourself.

Kosoglu: Yeah, you know. Yes, I’m the proud daughter of immigrants and watching them grow up in the town that we were in, but watching my family essentially trying to assimilate into the culture, but also understanding that there was going to be many classrooms where I was the only one that looked like myself, and the only one that had my lived experiences, and I didn’t have a group of people to necessarily share a lived experience with in terms of my food or culture.

Kosoglu: At the same time, it also gave me a real understanding about other people’s lived experience, other people’s culture, and at the end of the day some of the values that we still shared about living in a small town by the Jersey Shore and growing up with that sense of the local businesses, the vibrancy of the community, that certainly impacted my youth.

Kosoglu: But I find that a lot of times I meet young people from all over, and they are trying to navigate – you know, what should I do when I’m the only person that sounds like me, or talks like me, or lives like me, and I do think that those lived experience that a lot of us have, where we may have been the only one that look like us, even from a childhood age, is really helpful in helping to make better policy, because there are people around the country, whether they’re in classrooms or at their workplace that are feeling like, hey, I’m the only person that has this thought, or I’m the only person that has this feedback, and hopefully, it gives them some comfort and strength, that there are a lot of us out there that have gone through that, and that we are, you know, behind you and supporting you.

Choudhary: Yeah, absolutely. And it almost makes those diverse perspectives even more important despite how difficult they might be to share. Because, like you said, we are representing so many other people who don’t have a voice in policy and aren’t able to be in those rooms where the decisions are being made.

Kosoglu: Yeah, and I think for so many people, their parents came, especially children of immigrants, their parents came, the parents may not have felt empowered yet with their own American government. And so those kind of experiences where now we are trying to make sure, and we’re fighting for people to have a voice that may have felt marginalized, or maybe overlooked. It’s a really important quality to have when you’re making policy. And so, I feel really proud about that.

Choudhary: Yeah, definitely. So, kind of in the same vein of talking about the importance of perspective and diversity in government, in an earlier conversation, when you came to speak with my class, we spoke about your frustrations around wanting to work at the Obama White House and not being given the opportunity to do so. I feel like for a lot of students, this is such a relatable position – where you’re working so hard, you feel like maybe your peers around you are getting the opportunities that haven’t come your way yet. How do you maintain confidence and optimism when you maybe feel like you’re not being given that opportunity to move to the next step, even when you know you’re qualified to do so, and you’re kind of doing everything in your power to prepare yourself for the next step.

Kosoglu: Sure, I used to joke during some of my younger years. I mean the amount I would spend just on coffees with people to do these informational interviews and get a better sense and understanding of the system that frankly, most of us that have not lived in the DC area or have connections. It is just harder to break in, and there’s going to be for so many students, a time period where, or just those starting out in their career and trying to move up, times where you feel like you don’t understand the system. And so, you have to put yourself out there and keep doing those coffees and Zooms now. There wasn’t Zoom back then. I wish there was, but it was just a lot of money spent on coffees.

Kosoglu: And so, what I think it is, important is the takeaway that you know some part of this – particularly in the world of policy and politics and communications – is really understanding how to be okay with not knowing the next step. Because usually for most people when they get to the next step, they feel like, oh, that did make sense. You know, I didn’t end up working in XYZ office. But I ended up getting a much better fit for me working for, you know somebody else, and it does really seem to work out, and over years over time, you build up a career, whether or not you’re thinking about it.

Kosoglu: And so, the hard part is to keep at it. But certainly, most people, I think, when you look at their careers have run into some type of adversity in terms of not knowing the next step, not feeling like it’s the right next step, or you can’t get this next step you want to get to and managing yourself, and your anxiety during that time is just as much of a challenge and opportunity as is if things were to come so easily to you.

Choudhary: Yeah, yeah. And it definitely seems like that adversity makes you much stronger, because when you’re working that much harder for your next step, I feel like it means so much more than if it was just handed to you.

Kosoglu: That’s exactly right. And so, you know what’s different is when I was starting out versus now, I think young people have, you know, more access to technology, and the information flow is so much greater in terms of quickly Googling and getting huge amounts of information about the different paths in front of you. You can also feel analysis paralysis, like there are so many paths – what’s the right path to pick? And managing that part of yourself where you feel like there are so many different choices, and how do you pick just one is not easy, and that is half the battle. Particularly, I remember sitting down, I must have been closer to 30, and an older mentor of mine was like, I remember being your age, and I remember the anxiety that’s coming with you, and you just have to keep telling yourself it’s gonna be okay. And I thought it was such good advice, because now that I’m not 30 anymore, I hopefully can pass that down.

Choudhary: Little did that younger version of Rohini know – she would go on to be more than just “okay.” After over a decade in the Senate, Rohini was thinking about pivoting to the private sector. But at the same time that she was considering leaving the Hill, the new junior Senator from California had just arrived on the scene.

MSNBC Clip: Senator Kamala Harris

Morning Joe Clip: Senator Kamala Harris

Senate Acceptance Speech: Our new senator, Kamala Harris!

Choudhary: Early on, did you have any idea of how far this was going to go? Could you have ever imagined that Vice President Harris would be just that – she would be the Vice President of the United States of America?

Kosoglu: Yeah, like I said, I had no idea. I was about to pursue a path in the private sector. I had been over a decade in the Senate, and I could not find the right fit in the Obama Administration. And so, I just thought like, well, this would be a good time to go into the private sector. Donald Trump was elected, and when he was elected president, I did have several private sector offers. I also then, at the urging of a friend, put my name in to help start up her office. And I met her, and oddly enough, it was the first time I saw a senator that reflected even part of my own identity. And just you know, I really wanted to make sure that she was successful. I had all these years of Senate experience, and I had family in California. I had been there so many times for holidays, and the State of California was definitely – apologies, that is my 3 year old – but anyways, you know. So I met her, and I just knew she wanted to be successful and good at this. And so, it was important to me that I decided to be a part of that and that team.

Choudhary: Yeah. So like you mentioned, you literally started up her office. So what were some of the early challenges that your operation faced, particularly as her being the junior senator, a woman of color and someone who was serving the people of California?

Kosoglu: Yeah. So for starting up her office, one of the things that we definitely were looking for in terms of personnel and people and human capital was definitely people that understood the environment that we were going to be in, because starting up an office where you don’t have any full procedures yet, you’re making them up as you go. You’re figuring out the team structure. That all takes definitely special personalities that are willing to put in the work, to stay later than is normal, because again, you don’t have the infrastructure that you normally do, but then, with an office and making sure that you know we found people that really were passionate about the mission and the culture of the office, and that we were trying to build something that we’re forgiving about.

Kosoglu: Certainly, there were late nights, there were hearings that came up sooner than possible largely because there was a lot of Trump Administration nominees that we’re getting through, and so it was just so much more fast paced than a normal Senate office. And so, it was the beginning of a new administration, and the administration, if you can remember, I think one of the first things that President Trump did at the time was the Muslim ban that affected a huge amount of people in California. And so, just things like that where you’re trying to also confer, you know, make sure you’re doing the process to confirm nominees. There was the Russian investigation going on at the time. There were just things that people if they had seen a job description, would not think that they would be a part of or be asked to work on. But it came with the territory, and we had such a great team that was able to just be just soldiers about it.

Choudhary: Absolutely. And the term “soldiers” is so interesting because I was just gonna say it sounds like you were literally in crisis for basically those whole 4 years. So is there any particular anecdote that you can remember that was maybe the time, that at the time felt incredibly stressful, but now, as you’re looking back, you’re like, I can’t believe that we actually went through that together?

Kosoglu: Yeah, the part that people, you know, it can’t, it’s hard to get a fuller sense of, it’s certainly before and during some of these hearings that would take place. And so, people would watch then Senator Harris, who only had five minutes, give her speech about what questions that she was going to ask the nominees, or you know, the witnesses involved with the hearing, and the lead up to those hearings was tremendous. Because even after she had started to make a name for herself, in terms of really pointed questions, and being able to hone in on the heart of what we were discussing at the hearing, people also had an expectation that every time she would go to a hearing and that she also would always be able to do that. And so, that also puts a lot of pressure on your team. And it was, I think, part of my job and others to make sure that the team did not take on that pressure, and that they felt that they could really just focus in on okay – as she would say, why are we here today? Why are we using this five minutes?

Kosoglu: And there were definitely times that we would be working on things with her right up until the last second before she had to walk out the door. And you know, you’d like in any workplace at the end of the day. Okay, you make the changes, then the printer gets jammed up and people are just screaming at a printer, and then they’re running down hallways trying to get the questions to her. There were so many times that it was like these hearings, what you saw on TV, didn’t almost happen because I mean it took just, I mean some of these, some of these younger people, thank God, they were working out all the time, and like running to the hearing with the updated questions, and you know, then there would be printer malfunctions.

Kosoglu: I mean it was all sorts of things. People would be like kicking this printer, and it was so big, it was a big, huge printer. Of course, it was just printers have no sense of urgency, and so it would just be like, “Oh, my gosh!” People will be sweating, but it was, you know, you look back on it, and it was actually very fun. And in the moment. And so, after a lot of these times, there was a huge period of relief, and just camaraderie. But we all knew that we were in it together. And there is certainly a sense that at any given time, we were running around, or in, you know, supporting each other. So those were definitely memories I will remember for a long time.

Choudhary: Yeah, it sounds like you guys were a family.

Kosoglu: Yes.

Choudhary: Like Rohini mentioned, then Senator Harris’ powerful questioning of Trump appointees at Senate hearings was starting to garner a lot of attention – and that was just the beginning. By 2018, Harris had emerged as a rising star in the Democratic Party. After years of speculation on whether or not she would run for president, VP Harris decided to throw her hat in the ring.

C-SPAN Clip: I stand before you today to announce my candidacy for President of the United States.

Choudhary: Let’s talk about preparing a woman of color candidate, not only for debates, but for the presidential campaign as a whole. So what are some things that you had to take into consideration when thinking about presentation, speeches, and policy that maybe white male candidates don’t have to consider when they run for president?

Kosoglu: Well, I think there’s a ton of research out there that shows that women that are running for anything or holding elected office, are held to certainly a higher standard, when it comes to what the public expects and what they want to see. And so, research shows that people don’t really love to see women that may be able to, that could come to a campaign event or a government event, and you know, their hair is all over the place, their clothes aren’t sort of well put together – that’s important to them – so basically that overall concept of presentation.

Kosoglu: I think for any person that’s worked for a female elected official, someone that is running, fully has to understand that that is part of the world that they live in, and so that extra time that it takes to do hair, sometimes makeup – you know all of those things before they go for big interviews for big events – those are two hours you don’t get back, and male counterparts just have that as a part of their own time to do other stuff where there’s just not that same expectation. And you know, you build those into the schedule, you think about those, but at the same time it’s important that while you’re having to spend time on that, that you’re also making sure that they can get the same time to work out, or that they can get the same time to spend time with their family.

Kosoglu: It’s really important to make sure that particularly for women candidates or women elected officials, that you also understand that many times like they’re the ones planning like a big family get together. They’re the one that is expected to be, even while they’re doing these huge jobs, you know that was certainly a difference I saw when I was working with men versus women that just a lot more of the family conversations about – okay, what are we having for dinner and like cooking, this get together – those would all fall to women. And so at least just understanding and processing that some of those conversations still are gonna happen, and that you give these elected officials space to have those conversations, to see their family, and that you build in you know time for presentation, time for all of that. That’s important to the overall concept of how you not just run a campaign, but you know, really make sure that they hold elected office in a way that they feel good about.

Choudhary: Yeah, that’s so interesting to think about because I’ve certainly seen videos of Vice President Harris making Thanksgiving dinner and stuff, but it never occurred to me that she’s being pulled in so many directions, not just at work, but also at home. So that is really fascinating to think about. Let’s also flip back to you for a second. So you are a mother of three. You have had this meteoric rise of working in the mail room to becoming the Chief of Staff for the potential next president of our country, and eventually becoming the domestic policy adviser to the Vice President and the Deputy Assistant to the President. How did you handle all of that? And did you feel imposter syndrome at any point? And how do you combat that?

Kosoglu: Well, I have met, you know, young women all over the country that have certainly shared imposter syndrome. It is no question that I have had the blessing of working for a woman that has reached every you know, been the first to do so many things, and so when I would hit different things, you know, I was lucky that I certainly had her also hitting different things as well, and got to watch her and observe her handle those with grace.

Kosoglu: The most important thing honestly to me throughout all these years has been trying to make sure that when I’m in a position where I can hire people that have different lived experiences like I did, that I can bring those voices to the table. And so, when I was Chief of Staff in the Senate, it was really important to me that, you know, we had a diverse office, and that, you know, we looked at non-traditional things that job employers would look at. So, we certainly knew people in our office if they were first generation immigrants. We would know if they, you know, we understood where they were from, what their family circumstances were. You know, we did this in ways that were, you know, just all part of getting to know them. But it was something that I’m very proud of. We were able to, I think by my tenure have, something we built upon, certainly by my tenure, we had, I think 70% people of color and majority women in the office. We had a lot of people that said actually, whether they were people of color or not, that said: “I feel so comfortable in this office. I feel like I can be myself and that they’re understood.”

Kosoglu: But more importantly, you know, at the time, and basically kind of all my years with the Vice President, you know, she really wanted a diversity of opinion. She has wanted people, you know it’s not good to have a conversation around her where every single person has the same exact thought, the same way of thinking, because that’s just not like the American people. And so, you know, we would often in her office over the years debate things out. We would give pros and cons. We would argue different sides. We would play devil’s advocate on so many different issues to make sure that we had the full context for what we were about to make a decision for which many times could impact millions of people. And so, that’s really how we thought about it.

Kosoglu: But then over the years for me, I’ve sort of thought about it mostly in terms of, where can I influence and make sure we’re opening the tent in terms of who we’re bringing to meet with her, where she is going to visit, and where I’m even spending my time with and making sure that we’re just hearing from a diversity of opinions because with my own opinion and experiences, there’s so many experiences that I also can learn from others. And so that’s what I try and bring to the jobs.

Choudhary: Yeah, yeah. And an office that is 70 percent people of color and majority women sounds like the best work environment I can imagine. And I also feel that kind of ties back to what we were talking about earlier in the conversation about being from New Jersey, maybe being the only person of color in a room with people that don’t look like you, and how

extra important your voice is! And I love too about what you said about layering in all the different kinds of diversity to make sure you’re really representing the people of California and the people of the United States.

Choudhary: Okay. So, I have one final question for you. This is a question that I’m hoping to ask everybody who comes on the podcast with me. So, what is one thing that you know now that you wish you knew in the beginning of your career?

Kosoglu: That’s a great question. I have several things. One of them is definitely – I certainly want to make sure that my kids know this when they grow up – but you know it’s important before you have children to travel as much as possible. It is so much harder to travel. I have three children. You know some people are like, and this is something I often said, like I don’t have money to travel. Just find ways like to just get out of your comfort zone and travel, and it’s so important to see the world because it expands so much of your thinking and helps you understand what an interconnected world this is – not just people, but issues. And so a lot of my job has over the years been – it’s been a privilege to think about how interconnected all these different issues are. And so, if you can learn from one area or one issue policy, you know, you can bring that to another space and come up with some creative solutions to hopefully help people.

Kosoglu:  A big thing that I think that’s really important for people to understand when they’re younger, is that there is value in building up your relationships and investing in them over the years. Certainly, I’ve seen with young people that are certainly, whether they’re children of immigrants or others that feel part of coming to this sector of politics and policy, and all of that, is you may have felt like – I don’t want to go up to that person, and I feel weird, and I don’t want to ask, I don’t want to bother them. That’s like a constant thing I hear particularly from younger women and others. And the truth of the matter is – and we can all feel like this sometimes so it doesn’t really matter what age you’re at – but it is just really important to build the courage up over time to keep bothering people because it’s the way to potentially meet people that may change your life. And so, it’s not easy to, you know all those different moments where you’re thinking like, oh, they’re talking to somebody else like I don’t want to interrupt.

Kosoglu: I mean frankly, the reason we’re doing the podcast is because you waited to talk to me after the class. And so, it’s important that if you hadn’t done it, then I wouldn’t be here doing this today, and so things are created literally by you making the investment in yourself to ask. And part of it – you can just, you know, sort of – you have to just have some blinders on and not be. Oh, I think so many of us are almost too self-aware. They’re thinking so much like oh my gosh, I don’t want to do this, or I don’t wanna whatever. But that’s essentially you not using your voice. And so, you have to just kind of do everything you can to build up that courage inside because so many good things can happen by just you using your voice. And so, that’s what I would share with everyone.

Choudhary: Well, thank you so much. That is such a beautiful note to end the podcast on. It’s such an honor that this is my first podcast ever, and I got to do it with you. So, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Kosoglu: Of course. Well, thanks for having me and we’ll be in touch.