Leadership in Public Policy with Anatole Jenkins

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Podcast Transcript:

[Episode start]

William “Ryan” Brown: Well, first of all good evening, and thanks for taking the time to be with us today on this “Leaders of Public Policy” segment of the GPPR podcast. First of all, how are you doing?

Anatole Jenkins: I’m good. I’m very happy and excited to be here. It just started snowing here in DC as it’s so nice, toasty and warm inside but no complaints. Excited to be here with you.

Brown: Nice. Well, first of all, thanks again for coming on. We truly look forward to today’s fruitful discussion and look forward to your thoughts on leadership based on your impressive resume and experience. So, for starters, can you describe your early upbringing, your Georgetown fellow experience so far and how your upbringing has played a role into your leadership and work today?

Jenkins: Of course. Well for starters I’ll just say that, in terms of the Georgetown fellowship it has been great to spend time with students after spending four years just organizing against Donald Trump. It’s good to get a rest and to spend some time with folks who may not be as jaded as some of the politicals that I’ve been spending a lot of time with. And really spending time with them to talk about the work that we did in 2020 and how that informs the road ahead in terms of both electoral, social justice and social movement fights ahead. In terms of me, I was born and raised in the Washington DC area, I grew up the youngest. The youngest with a big sister who’s around eight years older than me so very much she was like a third parent for me growing up. I also grew up amongst a big family filled with tons of aunts, uncles and cousins as in every way we were more like siblings than anything else. They grew up as siblings and that’s very much how we interacted with each other. On both sides of my family there’s truly an aspect of “it takes a village” and that’s how we operate and all taken care of one another. I hadn’t really thought about this up until now, but it probably has played a big role in me becoming an organizer where you have to work together for starters, and where collective success matters much more than individual success to your common goal.

Brown: So, based on your impressive bio you are a 2020 National Director of States Organizing, Joe Biden for President, as well as the former National Organizing Director for Kamala Harris for President, pretty big titles. Can you talk about your journey in these avenues and what has been the most rewarding about these awesome opportunities?

Jenkins: My journey, it has been a journey. I feel like I am 65 years old sometimes it’s just been organizing back-to-back non-stop. I became an organizer ultimately because of representation and seeing myself in politicians for the first time, seeing myself in Barack Obama in 2007 and 2008. Before that I wanted to be an architect, but Barack Obama really inspired me and he opened my eyes to a kind of politics that was about us just as much or more so rather than it was about him. That was in 2008 and after that, I decided that I wanted to study politics at a university. And being in DC and from DC I also was very, very determined to get involved in Barack Obama’s world somehow and via that determination I was able to land an internship at OFA (Obama For America). And then after that it was really someone taking a chance on me and giving me an opportunity to work to get the President re-elected. At the time I sat down with my boss and mentor and said that I wanted to work full time to make sure that the President got re-elected and he gave me some of the best advice that I’d ever received. He said, you can come to Chicago and be my assistant or some senior staffer’s assistant, which seems like the cool sexy thing to do what everyone thinks a campaign is. Or you can go to Nevada and you can be an organizer and you can learn real leadership skills. So, I moved to Nevada as I was the first organizer hired and I haven’t looked back since. And since then, I’ve been back to Nevada organizing many times over. In 2014 I was the Field Director for the State party and in 2015 I went back there for Hillary Clinton’s Caucus Run. I’ve worked to take back the majority in the House of Representatives at the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, where I was the National GO TV Director in 2018. And then there’s obviously this cycle, where I did a whole host of different positions from leading then, Senator Kamala Harris’ organizing program for her run for the Presidency, to starting an independent expenditure group to do some organizing before the nomination actually closed up. We started organizing for Joe Biden, and then you know, on Joe Biden’s campaign as the National Director of Organizing or rather as the National Director States Organizing. Know at every moment where I really had to decide where I would hit next, which next role I would take, it really was all based off of a couple things. One where I felt I could uniquely make a difference and do what someone else can’t whether or not that was true or not that’s sort of my frame of thinking. And second, I’ve always trusted my gut as it has always proved me right. And it headed me in the right direction and it’s been such a rewarding journey, the entire journey. But definitely the most rewarding aspect has been the people that I’ve met along the way. Dear friends, family, mentors just some of the best people in the world.

Brown: That’s awesome, it’s great to hear about people and trusting your gut, you gave some great points there, love it. I’m taking notes here so it’s phenomenal. So based on current events, leaders today must be morally and ethically sound I think we’ve seen a lot of that in the news. I guess my question for you is who is in Anatole Jenkins’ “circle of trust” that provides you that feedback, criticism and serves as a moral compass to keep you sound and humble as a leader, director and a public servant?

Jenkins: Oh man, I mean there is a village of people. I have a whole host of people who I lean on to keep me centered in who I am and what those values are that I believe in as a leader. Many people who have really just met on this journey that I mentioned above. There are my friends, really family at this point, who’ve been on this political journey with me. I think of my dear friend Elena Mounts who we were organizers together in 2012 and live together and really went through both the best of times in the worst of times. She’s someone who knows how I respond to failure and is someone who always reminds me of who I am and why I got into this and why I continue to do it. I think of my dear family, mentor and friend Emmy Ruiz, who taught me so much about everything that know about organizing and leadership and it’s really the one who always reminds me to trust my gut. I think of my mentor Johannes who gave me that initial advice to actually go to Nevada to become an organizer. He is someone who always pushes me to take not necessarily the hard route, but keeps me focused on doing the tough work and not taking the easy route, which is often times the more glamorous route right? There are so many more people I certainly have to mention. My best friends, who I knew outside of politics in my career and who I grew up with and people who are not involved in politics at all. They are people who are crucial in keeping me grounded and keeping me humble and always making me realize that above all this stuff that we do… family, friends and community are what’s the most important.

Brown: I love it, I have notes here that it takes a village, having family to keep you humble, I think, are some great nuggets of wisdom, so I appreciate that point. So obviously leaders are readers, I guess, my question to you is what books are you currently reading and what are your go to books in regards to those wanting to learn more about what you do in regards to the campaign process?

Jenkins: Well, I’m not sure there are many books, I think you just got to get out there and do it.  Anything else would sort of give you a false sense of the intensity, the craziness, the beauty, the amazing people that are involved in campaigns, at least on the democratic side and from my experience. But I would recommend everyone read a biography about the great labor activist Cesar Chavez. I think this came out in like 2014 it’s called it’s called “The Crusades of Cesar Chavez” as it’s by Miriam Pawel, is, I think, how you say her last name. It’s about his life and how he organized, how he led his Union, the United Farmers Workers and how he brought field workers together against fierce opposition. They’re just a lot of lessons of leadership in his story that are really artfully articulated in that book. And I would say, in addition to that, I just finished reading, President Obama’s book, “A Promised Land,” which is long, but very interesting.

Brown: I love it. So as we transition from the books and go back to more of the leadership traits and there are some individuals you’ve already mentioned that have kind of helped shape who you are today. And most leadership traits can be traced back to mentors who have kind of helped you along this journey, if you will, so, who has been one of Anatole Jenkins’ biggest mentors and how have they shaped you to be who you are today?

Jenkins: You know my first day as an organizer I met Emmy Ruiz, who I mentioned earlier, she is someone who has played a huge role both in my career, but also my life. She ran Hillary’s [Clinton] caucus campaign there in 2016 and is an organizing rockstar as she was just named the White House political director. I’ve worked with her for more than a decade now and I’ve learned more about leadership from her than really anyone else. She is everything you need in the leader someone who invests in the development of those around her. She is someone who forces people to be their best self, someone who is authentic in her own leadership and doesn’t pretend to be anything she isn’t. And she’s someone who also doesn’t stop leading. You know, the thing with campaigns and electoral politics ultimately is you’re constantly getting a new job, which means you are constantly getting a new boss as you don’t have too many bosses for too long. But she’s someone who continues to lead and support those even after a job is done, even after election day is ended. I’ve learned so much from her but I particularly highlight what I’ve learned from her in terms of leadership in times of crisis and failure. What does the leadership look like when you’ve lost an election? What is the leadership look like when Donald Trump has just been elected President? What does leadership look like when your candidate is dropped out of the primary race right? But the truth is, first and foremost, the leader just has to show up, the rest you will figure out. The first thing you have to do is just show up as leaders lead and don’t stop leading and that’s a core characteristic for me.

Brown: I love it. The three points just from that alone just leaders having authenticity I think that’s so crucial today. Leading in times of crisis, I mean I think we’ve seen that over history, so I think that’s a huge part and then your final point about leaders just showing up and being present. I think that has such a great role as a leader so phenomenal, I love it. So, they say adversity makes the leaders better so what adversity, if any, did you have while going through some of these things, whether it was progressing as a director for both President Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris’ campaign and what did these alongside other instances teach you about yourself?

Jenkins: Well, let me tell you organizing is filled with failure, probably 75 if not more, percent failure and really just kind of “throwing spaghetti at a wall to see what sticks.” There’s the small simple adversities and failures. As an organizer, not hitting your goals for primary voters you need to talk to within the span of a week or not hitting your goals for how many voters you need to register in the span of a week which that’s something that you can fail as an organizer. That’s something that, at a much larger perspective, you could fail at as a national organizing director. As an organizer, hitting your goals is your number one priority as when you don’t hit those goals, it just it feels terrible. I remember my first time not hitting a goal, and you can correlate that to anything like missing a deadline. In those moments you learn really more than anything, how you respond to failure. In times of failure in times like that you have no choice but to just get up and keep going. But you learn truly what it takes for you to get up and get back up and get going. You learn what self-accountability is because in order for you to get up and get going, you have to take accountability, which is so crucial and important for any leader. So those are small adversities and small failures. Then there are adversities as I’ve kind of mentioned before, like losing which I’ve done a couple of times. I’ve had the 2014 midterm elections, which were not great for us. I had the 2016 election obviously. I had that essentially happened when Vice President Harris suspended her presidential campaign. And in those situations and circumstances I’ve learned a few things. One, as I mentioned, you have to show up as a leader, you have to show up in good times, but, most importantly, you have to show up in the bad times. This is something that I’ve learned through the experience of losing a campaign because I’ve had leaders who didn’t show up in the face of that kind of adversity, who left me hanging. That feels terrible, so you have to show up for your team. You also learn and figure out how you want to show up to support your team as well, which is just as important. And the second thing I’ve learned is that you just have to keep going and can’t indulge too much in self-pity. You can’t indulge too much in self-pity because life moves on and it won’t wait for you. There are so many people in the world who are working so much harder than we’re working in politics for much less money for something that they don’t believe in. Something Vice President Harris actually said on the night of the 2016 election, there’s a video of it for folks to Google it, which was kind of a pretty odd time and night for her. This was because she had won her election but obviously Hillary had lost hers. And so, she basically says we have two choices when people are about to be bullied or attacked: we can either retreat, or we can fight, and I say we fight. That’s something that in doing this work that we do I always keep in the back of my mind.

Brown: That’s phenomenal. I like the point you talk about in just responding to failure. I think sometimes when adversity hits us you have to do like you said and dust yourself off and keep going. And then just a sense of personal accountability, I think is huge, so great points as well there. So we’re currently at Georgetown, which is in the heart of DC and the Mecca of politics and policy making, so what changes have you seen in policymaking in regards to campaigning and winning the hearts and minds of voters?

Jenkins: I’ve seen two or three of the biggest changes that I’ve seen on the campaign side of things. One is how we reached voters. When I first got involved and started organizing back in 2011, a phone call was the gold standard in the type of voter contact and people picked up the phone about 15-20% of the time. Now that’s down 1-3% of the time, which means that there’s just a whole host of tools that are now the norm that help us sort of get over that hurdle. They’re also just a lot more ways now you can actually reach voters, right? There’s text messaging, which was not a thing at all in 2012 when I first started. There’s social media, which there are real actual ways to have real, honest, good conversation with voters individually via social media with some of the tools that we’re investing in currently. Two, there are so many more ways that people can cast their ballot that did not exist at all, or were not a part of our strategic imperatives for winning prior to. Prior to the past 8-10 years you have early voting, you have vote by mail. Even in the Democratic primary you have virtual caucuses. And with that, comes the need for a lot more education so that those voters understand their options and their choices for voting. But thinking back to 2012, early voting was only available in a minority of states and I don’t even remember ever hearing the term “vote by mail” in the state of Nevada. So that’s been a drastic change. Then I think lastly, I would say, but honestly most importantly, is that it’s more accessible to get involved than ever. In years past and cycles past in order for you to get involved in a campaign to elect someone you believed in, let’s say it running for President, if you don’t live in a battleground state there probably wasn’t even an office for you to go to actually get involved. And then there wasn’t much of a way to actually get involved. You look at now and you literally can just go to your favorite candidate’s website and there’s probably a way for you to sign up and start taking action right now, today and that’s on the electoral side. But if you look at the issue side of organizing, I mean let’s say I am living in Kentucky, for example, and I care about reproductive rights. There is probably not a Planned Parenthood office near me anywhere for me to get involved. How do you get involved versus now I can go to Planned Parenthood’s website and I’m sure that there are a whole host of grassroots events and virtual events that I can sign up for that allow for me to take action, right here and right now. For those folks out there looking for ways to get involved, find a candidate, go to their website and it will point you in the right direction.

Brown: Now that’s perfect and I think you’re so right with social media nowadays so accessible, you can go to whatever interest and candidates that you’re interested in at a click of a button. Whether Facebook, Twitter, Instagram the whole nine, so I think that’s just crazy how technology has evolved over time, so great stuff. So, one topic that’s been discussed very heavily in regards to leadership is Presidential Leadership and as the National Director of States Organizing for Joe Biden for President. As well as your work with Vice President Kamala Harris what leadership traits stood out to you from President Biden during your interactions with him and Vice President Harris, and how based on those interactions they will benefit America for the next four years?

Jenkins: I’m not sure if there are any that I would that I could really pinpoint out just from this cycle in and of itself. But the best leaders surround themselves with experts and listen to experts, people who are smarter than them in particular subjects or topics. You know this isn’t something that was particularly or necessarily so pronounced during the campaign. But for both President Biden and Vice President Harris you can see how they lead in elected offices beforehand and the people who they’ve surrounded themselves with and listen to. And ultimately, what that means in terms of process, normal process and not making decisions unilaterally. And in a return process ultimately truly means a return to informed decision-making right that’s guided by experts. And so, I’m really glad for us to return back to that norm. In addition to that you know I would say, you know the best leaders see the bigger picture in the “how” we do our work and see that that is just as important as the work that we’re doing if that makes sense. This is something I highlight because it’s really the way that Vice President Harris ran her campaign for President. She recognized the historic nature of what we were doing and what we were trying to do. But just as important as what we were doing for her was how we went about it. I remember the first time talking to Vice President Harris about how we were going to organize her campaign to win the nomination. And she listened, she listened and she heard everything that I had to say and then she said, all that’s good and well Anatole, but how are we planting seeds? And that’s something that she constantly acts throughout that campaign were how we were planting seeds and going about this campaign and organizing in a way that uplifted others and invested in the next generation of leaders.

Brown: I love it I love it, one thing I have here circled is experts, I think sometimes as a leader it’s good to be surrounded by subject matter experts that know different areas, and they can help you as a leader see the bigger picture, so I thought that was great and then just kind of planting seeds in the future, so I thought that was phenomenal.

Jenkins: Yeah, and going back to the experts, it’s particularly just in contrast to the past administration. It’s important to know that you’re not an expert in everything, no one’s an expert in everything. We can’t do any of this work that we’re trying, these really, really big things that we’re trying to do, we can’t do it alone. You got to do it with people and you got to do it with experts and you got to make informed decisions based off of the best information that you have, but you can only get this via having the best people around you.

Brown: I agree, because you can’t do it alone, what you mentioned when you have these subject matter experts, they can help you make those informed decisions to make what’s best for the group as a whole, so no, I think that that’s clutch. So, as we transition from talking about presidential leadership there’s been much discussion on diversity equity and inclusion and serving on campaigns for leaders who stress diversity such as Vice President Kamala Harris and President Joe Biden. Based on your observations and experience how do leaders foster climate of inclusion, where everyone is treated with dignity, respect and judged by their character and performance?

Jenkins: That’s a very, very good question, there are a lot of different ways that you can tackle this and I don’t think that anyone has a complete list. But there are a couple things that that are important one is, you have to create space. You have to create space for folks to be themselves and be amongst others who look and are culturally like them. It is okay for us to have differences and for us to go with our quote unquote clan and spend some time there re-centering ourselves with people who come from the same culture as us that’s important. So, you have to be able to create that space and create time for folks to actually be able to do that fellowship. Second, you have to provide real opportunity and not have diversity simply for the sake of diversity but recognizing the importance of diversity, which what does that mean? It doesn’t mean, just you know, checking a box and having people on your staff because they meet a quota. It means having people on your staff because they actually have different life experiences and an opinion that matters and not putting them in a box to only do those Black people only do Black outreach or those Latino people only do Latino outreach. But recognizing that we truly are a part of the fabric of the country and can actually do anything. In addition to providing that real opportunity, you have to have diverse leaders who bring again, different life experiences because that just makes your campaign and your work that you’re trying to do better. Your strategy, whatever it may be better. But second is because it’s important for people to see themselves in leaders. I mean I mentioned earlier, how that is how I was inspired to get involved in politics. And so, having diverse leaders actually will inspire people to want to, one, be a part of your campaign and two, feel comfortable in your campaign. And three, just will trickle down into having people having those real opportunities and having people feel comfortable having those spaces provided for them to actually go and fellowship. In terms of like creating those spaces that’s so crucially important. I think about this past 2020 election cycle where there were so many times where we just needed that space for black people honestly. You think of the summer, where there was just social unrest and that also goes back to my point of just showing up. Can you imagine having leaders who maybe aren’t Black or whatever color but aren’t maybe comfortable just bringing it up the fact that this stuff is happening. You’re a person of color and you have to sit in the meeting where someone’s not acknowledging. Acknowledgement matters so much and sometimes creating that space and having that space allows that to foster a lot easier.

Brown: No, I think that’s great, especially when you mentioned about acknowledgement and then creating space to be themselves. The one point that you hit on as well as when you think of diversity, equity and inclusion you can’t just check the block. Hey I have this diversity officer we’re good but actually taking the time to invest, create space to be themselves and acknowledge that, so I think that is huge.

Jenkins: And I would also it’s not easy often times right? It is not easy in many spaces to have the most diverse staff that doesn’t mean you don’t do it because you have to recognize the benefit of it and it takes investment. It takes investment from a resource standpoint, it takes investment from a people’s time perspective. It’s hard work, but it’s hard work that’s worth it.

Brown: No definitely. You gave me some great nuggets I think I’m on page five of my notes, I mean I’ve really appreciated this discussion. So, one of my last questions is: what is Anatole Jenkins’ leadership philosophy and what are your key takeaways for young leaders who are listening to this to be successful, like yourself in the future?

Jenkins: Yeah, I would say that my leadership philosophy, one, it evolves as I’m learning and rolling every day like we all are. But if I were to answer that today, I would say that my leadership philosophy is that “it takes a village” and that leaders never stop leading you know. Everyone needs a village to be successful and no one gets to a place of success alone. No one stays at a place that success alone as that’s a recipe for disaster. It’s our duty to take care of those in our village so find a village, create a village take those who you meet on your journey with you and don’t stop leading ever. Don’t indulge in too much self-pity, trust your gut it’s usually right, be a nice person, but ultimately, it takes a village and don’t stop leading because true leaders don’t.

Brown: I love it I love it; I like that part. If there’s anything I take away from just our discussion, from the beginning in, and now is as leaders, it takes a village. It takes a village of people around you and I think that’s definitely one point I’ll definitely walk away from. But once again I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us, I think this has been a great talk. Thanks for what you do and for joining us today. As we close do you have any closing remarks or anything for the audience?

Jenkins: You know, closing remarks, I would harken back to something that Vice President Harris says all the time and it’s “you don’t need permission to lead.” Just lead, just do it, just go and do it. You see a problem that needs fixing, fix it. If you see an area in a place that needs some leadership fill that void. You don’t need permission to get going to be a leader. Leaders don’t come in one box or shape or form, be your authentic self but don’t wait for someone to put you in a position to be a leader, you should just go and start leading. And I’m excited to see to continue to see a new generation of leaders, really taking the taking the helm and making this country even better.

[Episode end]